Why so much homophobia? Why, indeed.

[flewellyn]

I wrote this originally on another forum. The question someone was asking was, "Why can't straight guys who get hit on by gay guys just take it as a compliment, and be flattered?"

Here's what I said:

---

Straight men, by and large, can't think that way.

The reason, I think, has to do with (what I believe is) the real source of homophobia. To a great many men, there are two sex roles, and the equation works out like this:

Man = one who penetrates.

Woman = one who is penetrated.

Woman < Man, because woman = sex object, not person.

Therefor, being penetrated < man, because only sex objects are penetrated.

Now, men with this mindset will react with confusion and fear to the idea that a man could be penetrated, and thus made "less than" a man. These men are used to objectifying, not being objectified, so the idea that a man could find THEM attractive in a sex-object way is terrifying to them, because it upsets their conception of the natural order of things: man fucks, woman gets fucked. Because, you see, to these men sex is a form of power, not intimacy, where the man shows his dominance and his "fitness" by penetrating a worthy woman. A man being penetrated would mean the man lost his power, and turned into something less than a man (which, to these men, means woman).

So if we really want to combat this sort of idea, the first thing we need to do is convince these men that 1) Women are not sex objects, and 2) Sex is not all about power. This may take awhile...

Comments

[apocalypticbob.livejournal.com]

You know? I think you may be on to something here...

[flewellyn.livejournal.com]

I can't claim originality for the ideas. A lot of it came from my readings in the feminist blogosphere.

[motodraconis.livejournal.com]

Harsh, but quite possibly true for certain males... the sort of males I try and avoid.

[xuincherguixe.livejournal.com]

Not as harsh as I'd like it. But this is probably much more coherent than the due harshness would be.

[anwyn18.livejournal.com]

It's not nessisarily harsh. Just because some men associate women with penetration dosen't mean they automatically look down on them, or disrespect them. For some men it's a natural characteristic - women have boobs, higher voices, and are penetrated. Men have no boobs, lower voices, and penetrate. Now if you try and mix those sorts of characteristics around, it can be very challenging on a very deep level. If you identify as male, and have never questioned that, how can you not have an emotional reaction to taking on a characteristic you associate with a gender other than your own? Not all men who are uncomfortable with being hit on by gay men are offended - some are just dealing with a percieved challenge to their identity.

[flewellyn.livejournal.com]

Not all men who are uncomfortable with being hit on by gay men are offended - some are just dealing with a percieved challenge to their identity.

Yes, but why do they think this is a challenge to their identity? Because women are supposed to be lesser.

[anwyn18.livejournal.com]

No, because women are different. Any major shift in identity can upset people - even one in a "better" direction. People who have been poor and suddenly come into a great deal of money often struggle to redefine themselves, as do people who have been unemployed for a long time and manage to get and hold down a good job.
Why do transexuals struggle with identity issues? It's not JUST because of societal reactions - it's also because your gender is a fundamental part of your sense of self, and changing ANYTHING about that is challenging.

[iagor.livejournal.com]

Woo, sex object, woo-hoo! :likes being viewed as a sex object by her husband once in a while:

I think you're oversimplifying it just a little. What you're saying is true to some extent and can be viewed in prison environment: dominant males rape other male inmates but do not consider themselves gay because they are the ones assuming the power role.

In a wider social strata, the issue isn't just with the gender roles, the issue also involves cultural roles and lack of education.

For a lot of men, "gay" conjures up immediate images of gay pride parade and flamboyant effeminate men. In other words, a lot of straight men see "gay" and think "queen." An indication of attraction by a gay man may lead to a straight man questioning himself and what kind of vibe he is puting out. Basically, it threatens the essential male image, inherited by American males from the frontier and puritan ancestry: men don't cry and don't wear feathers.

A lot of men view this image as essential, because that's what in their opinion attracts women. An image of a confident able male, if you will. And they are right, we want a confident able male who can stand up for himself and his family. We're basically hardwired to seek a protector for ourselves and our future offspring; we want someone who is smart, kind, and strong. (If he is funny too, you've hit a jackpot. The problem is that the strength women look for is often not physical, but rather strength of character.)

So to sum up, when a gay man hits on a straight man with doubts about his own attractiveness to the other sex, he may get a very violent reaction. The straight man may not be reacting because he is viewed as a sex object. A lot of men don't mind being viewed as a sex object by a woman. In this case the straight man is reacting because he is deeply insecure about being able to attract women and being hit on by a "gay guy" reinforces those insecurities. That's why you have all those case of sudden violence against gay men by males whom nobody had considered to be prone to violence.

What those guys do not understand is that a lot of gay men are smart, kind, and strong, and well, manly. They are regular "guys". And this can only be corrected by education and exposure, and not the kind of exposure our media sometimes encourages. Effeminate gay men make for a great TV and the producers tend to play it up to the point of grotesque. That's why I like Project Runway so much: look at Elliot. He is a guy almost any straight man can picture himself sharing a drink with without any worries about his own image.

This doesn't mean that I advocate that more flamboyant members of the gay community need to tone it down. Rather, I advocate that more attention should be given to the other members of gay community, the ones who lead less wild lives, who want a family, and whom we, as a society, are preventing from legalizing the said family. They're basically invisible to public eye, and that's not a good thing.

It goes back to cultural roles and unfortunately again to the lack of education. 75% of high school males have never heard of Sparta.

[fizzylizard.livejournal.com]

Hear hear!

If I may quote from Phaedrus:

If there were only some way of contriving that a state or an army could be made up of lovers and their loves, they would be the very best governors of their own city, abstaining from all dishonour and emulating one another in honour; when fighting at one another's side, although a mere handful, they would overcome the world. For what lover would rather be seen by all mankind than by his beloved, either in deserting his duty or throwing away his arms? Or who would desert his beloved or fail him in the hour of need? The veriest coward would become a hero at such times as these...Love would inspire him, Love alone.

Someone needs to remind young men about such things, before the world forgets them.

[anwyn18.livejournal.com]

*applause*

There is of course a very gory war movie coming out soon all about Sparta, so perhaps that last statistic will change. Although they will probably take out the gay part. *sigh*

[flewellyn.livejournal.com]

Yes....but look at the aspects of the "gay" image that are threatening to this "essential male" image.

They are feminizing.

[iagor.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. :)

[anwyn18.livejournal.com]

OKay, I have so many things to say about this. Firstly, the "essential male" image is largely perpetuated by other males - and yet violence against gays can occur in situations where no one would ever have found out that the two men were together. Therefore one would have to assume that at least part of the reaction is entirely contained within the man and his sense of self.

Secondly, consider how violently women can also react to being hit on by lesbians if they consider themselves straight. Even in this age of "trysexuals", there is still a great deal of risk attatched to hitting on a girl you don't know to be that way inclined. Not physical violence true, but I've seen more than one case where lives were ruined by offended parties. Personally, I think this is because women are taught to react to things they don't like/that scare us with psychological violence, and men with their fists. This parallell suggests to me that there is more than just masculinity or femininity issues involved.

[onceupon.livejournal.com]

I think that's a pretty succinct summation of the real problem.

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

This is why I hate being straight- I get associated with people who think that way when I'm really just attracted to women and not to men.

[coffeegrace.livejournal.com]

Well, yeah, in some cases that is probably what is going on. Especially with men who are homophobic. Although I think some homophobic men are so because they have doubts about their own sexual preferences.

But, for a straight man who doesn't usually have a problem with gay men in general except when they hit on him, I don't think it's necessarily that. Because I get annoyed/grossed out when I get hit on by a woman or a man I find unattractive. I don't mind at all if it's done with class, and they take the hint right away, or if it's just friendly flirting. But some people are very forward and pushy, and I find that to be a turnoff. There's never a reason or excuse for violence, but I can understand being annoyed by being hit on by someone you find unattractive. It all has to do with how it's done. If they are leering and letchy it really grosses me out to have it be so obvious that this person is imagining me in a way I do not appreciate.

APPLAUSE!!

[lucretiasheart.livejournal.com]

I heartily agree with you!

Long ago, what you describe above became my own conclusion for where homophobia comes from-- and you're right, it's intricately linked to the notion that women are lesser. Interesting that the 2 go together, eh?