This week, on "My Skin Curdles, My Blood Crawls"...

[flewellyn]

I posted this on this blog, discussing the 17 year old Oregon girl who, after accusing her boyfriend and two of his friends of raping her, was convicted of filing a false police report; the apparent reasoning by the judge was that, since the prosecution couldn't find enough evidence that the rape had taken place, she was obviously lying. Several commenters on the blog proceeded to do the usual misogynist bashing of women, feminism, and the notion that rape actually happens all that often, and went off accusing women of lying about rape as often as 25% of the time.

Several other people, of course, took them to task for their nonsense, and cited actual statistics showing that the number of rape reports which turn out to be falsified is around 1.6%; nonetheless, I felt compelled to respond, thus:

---

Aside from the statistics cited above showing that women lie about rape charges in as few as 1.6% of reports, there is a simple, logical reason why assuming that women will lie about rape just doesn't make sense.

Look at what happens to a woman who accuses a man of raping her. Her name is dragged through the mud, her sexual history is questioned, she is slandered with all sorts of vile names by the defendant's supporters, lawyers, and by men of society at large. She is told that it was her fault, that she shouldn't have been doing whatever she was doing when her attacker raped her. She is accused of making it all up, of lying to be vengeful or (if the rapist is rich, such as Kobe Bryant) of seeking money. She faces long odds of getting a conviction; in Oregon, apparently 10% of reported rapes result in a conviction. Rape being one of the most underreported crimes there is, the real numbers are surely much higher.

She receives all kinds of "advice" from people which can be summed up as "don't have a social life, don't ever drink, don't go out of your house, and if you still get raped, it's still your fault". Her family and friends may well abandon her, or even turn against her. Her religious community may well turn their backs on her, as well.

Given all of this, what sort of logical reason would there be for women to lie about being raped? The 1.6% who apparently do, I would surmise, are probably mentally ill; otherwise, anyone sane would realize that accusing a man of rape is extremely difficult and has all kinds of social and psychological penalties, whether he is convicted or not. The man accused, or even convicted, of rape has many allies in society, many people trying to excuse what he did, or blame it all on the woman. Look at how many people today still think Desiree Washington was just a golddigger, even after Mike Tyson was, in fact, convicted.

Quite simply, sane people do not lie if there is no benefit to them in doing so. And the simple fact is, lying about rape has no benefit for women. So, given these facts...who would benefit from lying about rape? If it's not women, then who?

Comments

[mcpatti.livejournal.com]

Ah, fuck. Don't even get me started.

I'll leave it at this:
/applause.

People are fucking retarded. You win!!

[fantom07.livejournal.com]

I am going to say that Rape is never as cut and dried as we want it to be. And it will always, ALWAYS end in controversy unless the evidence is so blatant that there is no doubt.

But I know a case where she called rape long after it occured and during the whole relationship she was always the instigator in the sexual acts. It pretty much destroyed the guy's life and it's hard to say exactly who was at fault.

It's easy to champion women and throw out figures and stats, but in the end it's a situation where there will always be another side to the story that counters it all.

Is rape wrong? Oh hell yes. Is it all her fault? Good god no! BUT - I know that there are MANY cases where rape could have been prevented if wiser choices were made ON BOTH parts, and yet men get all of the blame. That, to me, is just as unfair as a woman's name being dragged through the mud.

[cherrypep.livejournal.com]

...surely if a woman's name is being dragged through the mud, then the woman is generally getting some blame? If not, then I'm confused.

[fantom07.livejournal.com]

I'm just saying that it's a situation in which there can be blame and fault on both sides, and both sides will get a share of what's going on. Not all cases of rape are publicised, not all women will get the attention as high profile cases, but no matter what - falsy accusused or rightly - the rape charge will be with the man forever, and that can have serious, life destorying results.

My whole point, though, is that rape is not as simple as "he's guilty, she's not" in every case.

[cherrypep.livejournal.com]

*shrug* True. But "and yet men get all of the blame"? :)

[momily.livejournal.com]

The only thing I'd like to say is that there are plenty of women for whom the rewards of reporting a false rape outweigh the cost. Revenge on a man can be very sweet reward indeed, and worth all sorts of shit in the meantime.

That doesn't mean I condone this, just sayin'.

Where the hell did this come from?

[flewellyn.livejournal.com]

It does not matter what she was wearing, what she had to drink, who she was out with. If there was no consent, then it's rape, and it's wrong, and it's the fault of the rapist.

Also, last I checked, it is not at all easy to champion women in this society. And figures and stats are pretty much the only weapons against pernicious falsehoods of our culture.

As far as the person you know who was falsely accused, I'm very sorry to hear that. I too know of a case where this happened.

It doesn't change the general point at all.

[flewellyn.livejournal.com]

Yes, but rape is a very bad charge to use for a vengeance report. Drug possession is far easier; you can report that anonymously, and nobody calls you evil for doing so.

In pretty much all of the cases I know of in my community where people try to get revenge via false crime reports, the charge is either drug possession or theft of some kind. Or, these days, having suspicious looking weapons or substances in their homes. I have only once ever seen a woman levy a false rape charge for revenge purposes, and she recanted after the prosecutors started asking too many questions.

[flewellyn.livejournal.com]

My whole point, though, is that rape is not as simple as "he's guilty, she's not" in every case.

Yeah it is. If a man has sex with a woman, and she doesn't say yes or otherwise clearly signal consent, it's rape. He's guilty, she's not. End of story.

The only way I can see any ambiguity is if she says yes, they have sex, and only after the fact does she change her mind. The only time she can't change her mind is after the act is completed. If she says "stop" or "no" halfway through, and he doesn't stop, it's rape. He's guilty, she's not.

If they have sex, she said yes, and all, and only afterwards does she decide she should have said no...well, that is not rape. It's unfortunate, but it's not rape. However, I only know of one case where this happened, and the woman tried to bring rape charges...and, like I said below, she recanted after the prosecutors started asking too many questions.

Re: Where the hell did this come from?

[fantom07.livejournal.com]

It comes from some one who has seen a different side of a rape issue.

I think that some (not all, NOT ALL) rape situations could have been prevented by making better choices BY BOTH PARTIES. That doesn't mean it's all her fault, but I think we don't stress the whole "hey, you know - if you booze it up and lose conciousness, this could happen to you and it will suck a whole lot, so let's make some more educated choices when out there."

Women are just as responsible for putting themselves in bad situation. This doesn't mean I can't go out to a bar and drink it up, but it does mean hey, maybe I shouldn't go out with strangers or drink until I black out.

And I think it is easy to champion women in this society. We are a lot stronger than given credit for. But I feel that we let ourselves get taken advantage of because of it. The only time I have ever felt like society has betrayed me was when someone says something like "look how much she, a woman, has accomplished!"

I'm just saying - and this is my whole point - is that rape is never a simple court case.

[fantom07.livejournal.com]

But here's the thing - what if he doesn't hear her? What if she thought she said stop but really didn't? People, while drunk, have bad memories. If he's been drinking, he may not be able to comprehend. What it comes down to is a VERY BAD SITUATION in which it's one word against another.

I feel bad for any judge in this situation. It's hard to determine what really happened. I'm not saying every case is like this, but there are cases like this that happen.

*shrugs* Some situations really aren't as black and white as we want them to be.

Re: Where the hell did this come from?

[flewellyn.livejournal.com]

Alright, I will grant you that boozing it up and losing consciousness are never good ideas. For either sex.

Of course, 50% of rapes have sober victims. So avoiding alcohol will not prevent it.

You might find reading ginmar helpful. She has some perspective and information on this issue (and many others) that I think you'd find valuable. And it might even change your mind a bit.

Re: Where the hell did this come from?

[fantom07.livejournal.com]

What a polite way to imply that I haven't thought about this on my own, or haven't discussed this before with other people on the other side previously.

Just because you think I'm wrong, doesn't mean that my argument has merit. I'm just presentiing a different side.

[flewellyn.livejournal.com]

If he genuinely thought she consented, and she couldn't remember whether she said no or not...I would not want to be a judge in that situation either. I would have to look at the man's record; were there any other accusations made against him? Does he have a history of sexually harrassing women? How does he behave in the courtroom, and what kind of attitude does he display towards the woman?

The legal standard for consent in common law countries, such as the US and UK, generally holds that intoxication makes a person unable to legally consent. I think this should work both ways: if a perpetrator is drunk, he should be held incompetent to ask.

Otherwise, what we have is a situation where the man's drinking makes him less responsible, but the woman's drinking makes her more responsible.

Re: Where the hell did this come from?

[flewellyn.livejournal.com]

I know it's a different side, Meg. I just think it's incorrect. Whether or not you thought about it on your own, or discussed it with others, doesn't matter from where I sit: what matters is, is your argument right? I would say, on balance, mostly not.

[fantom07.livejournal.com]

aaaah, but then we make it crime to have sex if there has been any form of mood/descion altering substance, and that's starting to take away from our civil liberties.

What it comes down to is that it's a situation that sucks for all parties involved.

[flewellyn.livejournal.com]

Okay, then we go the other way: being intoxicated is not held to enter into it at all.

It sucks for all parties involved, but if one of the parties is held to a different standard than the other, there is a serious problem.

Re: Where the hell did this come from?

[fantom07.livejournal.com]

What I'm doing though is presenting gray areas. Nobody likes them because there is no way to accuratly defend or support them, and then nobody gets to be right.

And being right is the most important thing, isn't it? I mean, who wants to be just when you can be right.

[fantom07.livejournal.com]

If we outlaw sex, only the outlaws will have sex!!!

No wait...that's not right...

Re: Where the hell did this come from?

[flewellyn.livejournal.com]

I think you're mistaking my point. My point is not "I have to be right". My point is "I don't think those areas are very gray at all."

At any rate, given the statistics, the "problem" of women falsely accusing men of rape is one that occurs in less than 2% of cases. I don't think 2% of cases deserves 50% of the attention.

[flewellyn.livejournal.com]

Hey, now. I'm all in favor of sex. I just want it to be consensual sex.

This, by the way, is why I kept asking "may I do this?" until you finally told me to shut up. :-)

[fantom07.livejournal.com]

And see, I find that sad that we can't trust anybody. No means no, but yes means "well, maybe not"? See, as much as men need to take the responsibility to ask, women need to take the responsiblity to commincate just as well.

And yes - sometimes comminicating means a spary with mace.

Re: Where the hell did this come from?

[fantom07.livejournal.com]

I think there are gray areas though. And I think we over look them because they are too difficult.

[flewellyn.livejournal.com]

Sure, we all need to communicate. This is not me saying that we shouldn't.

But again, I gotta point out that most rape charges do not result in conviction. It varies by state, but I think Oregon was something like 10%. This is also where the 2% of false rape charges thing came from.

There's a serious problem there.

Re: Where the hell did this come from?

[flewellyn.livejournal.com]

Tell you what.

Let's first work on the vast majority of non-"gray area'd" cases of rape and sexual assault which nonetheless do not result in a conviction. Then we can start worrying about "gray areas", when by and large most women do not need to fear every time they walk out their doors.